Is God a good god? (4 views) Subscribe   
  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/11/2001 12:24 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 51)  
 
  62.1  
 
We have all been taught through Christianity that God is great, God is good. But is it possible that God may be just as sick and twisted as humans. After all we were made in his image. 
If one subscribes to predetermination, then God planted the tree of knowledge knowing that Adam and Eve were going to eat of it. If God truely loved us, he would not have created the tree in the first place. 

God created Satan. So all evil is God's work as well. 

God favored Abel for his sacrafices of meat rather than Cain's sacrafices of plants. Yet when Cain sacraficed his brother to God, he was punished. 

God protects murderers. If you look at Genesis, anyone bearing the mark of Cain, if killed, will be avenged sevenfold. The mark of Cain is beleived by some to be the mark of a killer or a vampire, but I am not going to get into a vampire debate here. 

God killed all the first born of Egypt. A kind god would have found other ways to sway the Pharoh's belief. 

God completely demolished Sodom and Gomorrah. A kind god would help them see the light, besides the destruction of their city and all that dwell within it. 

God threw out angels from Heaven for the fact that they loved Him more than the humans.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/11/2001 9:10 am  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (2 of 51)  
 
  62.2 in reply to 62.1  
 
God created Angels & Humans with the Potential to do both Good and Evil. Some choose to do good and others choose to do evil. 
God created Lucifer for good and with the Huge potential to do good. Lucifer chose to become evil and to use his vast abilities and capabilities of good for evil. 

Likewise people have more capabilities than animals, and people can do more good and also more harm than animals can. 

Had God created Robots then there would be no free choice for good or for evil. God did not create robots. God Created Angels and People and He created us with capability and Potential to make a Difference in the world around us either for good or for evil. 

God created people as individuals. God is not responsible for the actions of others any more than you or I are. As Individuals we are Accountable to God on an individual basis for each of our own individual actions and choices. 






David A. Brown
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/11/2001 1:57 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (3 of 51)  
 
  62.3 in reply to 62.1  
 
God created us with a choice. To be fair He had to allow us some thing to choose besides Him so He placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. What is love if there is no choice? God loves us enough to give us a choice to serve Him or not. 
God didn't create Satan as evil. Again that was a choice that he himself made. The angels that were cast down into hell with him choose him over God. 

God favored Abel over Cain because Abel sacrificed the best that he had to God. Cain only gave a portion of what he had but not the best portion. 

Cain was afraid that someone would take vengence on him so God gave him that mark as protection. God loved Cain even in his disobedience. 

You are complaining about how God handled things in Egypt by killing all of their first born children. Well God tried other avenues and nothing worked. You talk as though killing the first born was God's first choice, it wasn't. 

Concerning Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham himself asked God if He would sweep away the righteous with the wicked. God said no that if 50 righteous people could be found that He would not send destruction. Abraham bagained God down to as few as 10 people but not even that many righteous people could be found. God was being more then reasonable. 

Ruth


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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/11/2001 9:02 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (4 of 51)  
 
  62.4 in reply to 62.3  
 
Ruth (RUTHMARX) wrote:
God favored Abel over Cain because Abel sacrificed the best that he had to God. Cain only gave a portion of what he had but not the best portion.
  Interested in hearing some of the additional detail given in the Mormon scriptures?  I'll quote some verses from the book of Moses (found in our Pearl of Great Price), chapter 5:
18  And Cain loved Satan more than God.  And Satan commanded him saying:  Make an offering unto the Lord.

19  And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord..

20  And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock, and the fat thereof.  And the Lord had respect for Abel and his offering;

21  But unto Cain and his offering, he had not respect.  Now Satan knew this, and it pleased him.  And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

22  And the Lord said unto Cain:  Why art thou wroth?  Why is thy countenance fallen?

23  If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted.  And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto the according to his desire.  And thou shalt rule over him.

24  For from this time forth, thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.

25  And it shall be said in time to come  That these abominations were from Cain; for he rejected the greater counsel which was had from God; and this be a cursing which I will put upon thee, except thou repent.

26  And Cain was wroth, and listened not any more to the voice of the Lord, neither to Abel, his brother, who walked in holiness before the Lord.

27  And Adam and his wife mourned before the Lord, because of Cain and his brethren.

28  And Cain took one of his brother's daughters to wife, and they loved Satan more than God.

29  And Satan said unto Cain:  Swear unto me by thy throat, and if thou tell it thou shalt die; and swear thy brethren by their heads, and by the living God, that they tell it not, for if they tell it they shall surely die; and this that thy father may not know it; and this day I will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands.

30  And Satan sware unto Cain that he would do according to his commands.  And all these things were done in secret.

31  And Cain said:  Truly I am Mahan, the master of this great secret, that I may murder and get gain.  Wherefore Cain was called Master Mahan, and he glorified in his wickedness.

32  And Cain went into the field, and Cain talked with Abel, his brother, and it came to pass that while they were in the field, Cain rose up against Abel, his brother, and slew him.

33  And Cain gloried in that which he had done, saying:  I am free; surely the flocks of my brother falleth into my hands.
  From this point, the chapter pretty much parallels Genesis, as far as Cain's fate.  Of significance here, I think, is that Cain's dispute with God was not just over the quality of Cain's sacrifices.  Cain had chosen, from the beginning, to follow Satan rather than God.  He made sacrifices to God only because Satan told him to do so.  (Satan, of course, knew that sacrifices made for this reason would be rejected, and that this would anger Cain, bringing him further under Satan's influence.)  He rebelled against God, and made secret deals with Satan, which culminated in the murder of Abel.



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/11/2001 10:25 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (5 of 51)  
 
  62.5 in reply to 62.4  
 
Bob, 
Spare us the Mormon Garbage! I am not interested in having that Phony Stuff placed on this forum as though it has any merit. 

Hello!!! The Book of Mormon was written by an American in the 1800s. The Mormons have No Clue as to what happened in Genesis between God and Cain. 

*** I site as proof that the Mormon Book is scholarly unsound the Fact that the Smithsonian Institute has Rejected a copy of the Book of Mormon for display based on poor scholarship, the inability to collaborate anything, and dubbed the entire work a fairy tail, not worthy of the Smithsonian Institute. 

DO NOT Post any More Mormon Material on this Site!!! 






David A. Brown
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/12/2001 1:18 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (6 of 51)  
 
  62.6 in reply to 62.5  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
Spare us the Mormon Garbage! I am not interested in having that Phony Stuff placed on this forum as though it has any merit.
  .
  .
  .
DO NOT Post any More Mormon Material on this Site!!!
  What are you afraid of, David?  if what I am posting is merely false, then it can be dismissed as such.  The only reason for you to be so fearful is that you think it might be true, and are afraid of having your own point of view discredited.  Are you so shaky in your confidence in the truth of your own beliefs that you cannot bear to see such an expression of someone else's?  Can your own beliefs not stand up to such discussion?



I site (sic) as proof that the Mormon Book is scholarly (sic) unsound the Fact that the Smithsonian Institute has Rejected a copy of the Book of Mormon for display based on poor scholarship, the inability to collaborate anything, and dubbed the entire work a fairy tail (sic), not worthy of the Smithsonian Institute.
  I take it you have, or can produce, a copy of the statement from the Smithsonian Institution, in which these things are said of the Book of Mormon?  I didn't think so.

  When I saw your mention of the Smithsonian, I recalled that I very recently read about this claim being made my enemies of the Church, along with a refutation of these claims.  Searching back through books I've recently read, I found it.  Alas, it covers a whole chapter in the book A Challenge to the Critics, by Diane E. Wirth, pages 22-36.  I'm afraid I can't adequately summarize this chapter, other than to state these points:
  The Smithsonian Institute does have a stament about the Book of Mormon.  While being unsupportive of the Book of Mormon, the Smithsonian's statement does not say what you say it does.  It does not say anything about poor scholarship, nor is the term fairy tale or anything to that effect found anywhere in this statement.

The Smithsonian's statement cites several widely-held scientific and archeological theories which seem to fail to support the Book of Mormon.  However, A Challenge to the Critics cites several respected scientific and archeological sources of evidence which contradict those cited by the Smithsonian, and which are consistent with the Book of Mormon.

The Smithsonian does have a number of copies of the Book of Mormon in the library of its National Museum of Natural History.  This is stated in its official statement concerning the Book of Mormon.

  BTW, the passage I quoted is not from The Book of Mormon, but from the Pearl of Great Price.



The Mormons have No Clue as to what happened in Genesis between God and Cain.
  It seems to me that we know a lot more about this and other matters than you do.  Perhaps this is what has you so upset.



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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/12/2001 4:04 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (7 of 51)  
 
  62.7 in reply to 62.6  
 
Perhaps we should begin to refer to David as Tokemata. 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/12/2001 9:46 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (8 of 51)  
 
  62.8 in reply to 62.4  
 
AHH but do you see how God's Word is in contrast to BOM... 
Genesis 4 
1 
Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, "With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man." 
2 
Later she gave birth to his brother Abel. Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 
3 
In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. 
4 
But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 
5 
but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast. 
6 
Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 
7 
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it." 
8 
Now Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let's go out to the field." And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him. 
9 
Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?" "I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?" 
10 
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. 
11 
Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 
12 
When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth." 
13 
Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear. 
14 
Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me." 
What grieved Cain the most was being hidden from God's presence. If he had stopped listening to the Lord as BOM claims it would not have bothered him to be driven from the land and hidden from God's presence. 

Ruth


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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/12/2001 10:54 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (9 of 51)  
 
  62.9 in reply to 62.8  
 
Ruth (RUTHMARX) wrote:
AHH but do you see how God's Word is in contrast to BOM...
  It was not The Book of Mormon from which I was quoting, but another volume of LDS scripture, The Pearl of Great Price, which, to me, is every bit as much God's word as is The Holy Bible.  That said, and seeing no need to quote again the pasage which you posted from Genesis



What grieved Cain the most was being hidden from God's presence. If he had stopped listening to the Lord as BOM claims it would not have bothered him to be driven from the land and hidden from God's presence.
  The account given in Genesis does not say why God rejected Cain's offerings, nor does it explicitly say why Cain was wroth with God (though I agree that it is fairly obvious that Cain was angry, at least in part, because his offerings were rejected).  In an earlier posting, you said, God favored Abel over Cain because Abel sacrificed the best that he had to God. Cain only gave a portion of what he had but not the best portion.  The Bible does not say this.  In making this statement, you were speculating, interpolating in your own mind to fill in the holes in the Bible's account of this story.  If I were to contradict you, and claim that Cain offered up the best of his crops, and was every bit as sincere as Abel in his offerings (mind you, I am claiming no such thing, for this is not what I believe to be the truth), you would not find anything in Genesis to dispute this view.

  I think you are looking to find a contradiction between the account of Cain's story found in Genesis, and that found in The Pearl of Great Price.  There is no contradiction here.  The Pearl of Great Price version contains more detail, is all.



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/12/2001 11:40 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (10 of 51)  
 
  62.10 in reply to 62.9  
 
Hebrews 11:4 By Faith Able offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Bob, you can throw away all the Mormon writings. We dont need them the Bible is complete even the testimony of Able lives on even though he is physically dead.

Ruth is correct, Able offered a favorable sacrifice to God, because He did what God had asked. Cain offered his own sacrifice and it was not acceptable to God.

This is interesting because way back in Genesis Chapter four we find out that there is an acceptable sacrifice to God and there are also Unacceptable sacrifices to God.

An acceptable sacrifice is brought into the Presance of God. Jesus because He is God is the acceptable Sacrifice to God. Jesus is Our Acceptable Sacrifice He is in the Presence of God.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of Man sitting on the right of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Jesus moments before His Crucifixion is telling His accusers that He is the Acceptable Sacrifice for the Sins of the World and that Jesus will be at the right hand of Power.






David A. Brown
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/12/2001 2:15 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (11 of 51)  
 
  62.11 in reply to 62.10  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
Hebrews 11:4 By Faith Able offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Bob, you can throw away all the Mormon writings. We dont need them the Bible is complete even the testimony of Able lives on even though he is physically dead.
  I would no sooner throw away or disregard these sacred writings than would I throw away key parts of the Bible.  I think that the passage I posted from The Pearl of Great Price shows that the Bible is not complete.  Indeed, I think you would have to be most nave and ignorant to deny that there is much truth and wisdom to be found outside that loose collection that we know as The Holy Bible.



Ruth is correct, Able offered a favorable sacrifice to God, because He did what God had asked. Cain offered his own sacrifice and it was not acceptable to God.
  Abel's sacrifice was acceptable to the Lord, and Cain's was not.  You and I not in disagreement on this point.  The Bible and the Pearl of Great Price are not in disagreement on this point.  The point of contention is why was Cain's sacrifice not acceptable, while Abel's was?  Ruth (who, BTW, happens to bear the same first name as my sister) stated that God favored Abel over Cain because Abel sacrificed the best that he had to God. Cain only gave a portion of what he had but not the best portion.  This is a good guess to make, based on what information is found in the Bible, but it is not explicitly stated anywhere in the Bible that this is so.  This is only a conjecture.  Look for an explicit answer to the question of why Cain's sacrifice was not accepted by the Lord.  Search the entire Bible, and you will not find it.  It isn't in there.  Search The Pearl of Great Price and you'll find the clear, explicit answer.  Cain had dealings with Satan, Cain loved Satan more than he loved God, and when he made his offering to the Lord, he was doing so out of obediance to Satan, and not to God.

  This is a piece of truth that is missing from the Bible, but which we now have available to us through the miracle of latter-day prophesy.



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/12/2001 2:29 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (12 of 51)  
 
  62.12 in reply to 62.11  
 
The Mormon writings are a Plagiarism of the Bible. Mormons have declared the Bible to be incomplete But that is not true the Bible is complete. Everything God wants us to know About Him for us to have a relationship with Him is in the Bible.
John 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they (Scriptures) are they which Testify of Me (Jesus).

Life is in Jesus not in words on paper.

It is the Mormon writings in Denying the Deity of Jesus that are incomplete.






David A. Brown
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/12/2001 5:17 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (13 of 51)  
 
  62.13 in reply to 62.12  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:The Mormon writings are a Plagiarism of the Bible.  You realize, of course, if you're going to make claims like this about any LDS scripture, then it's up to you to present an example.  So cite for me a passage from LDS scripture which you claim is plagiarized from the Bible, along with the passages from the Bible which you claim are therein plagiarized.Mormons have declared the Bible to be incomplete But that is not true the Bible is complete.  There are numerous places in the Bible which make reference to scriptures which are not now part of the Bible as we know it.  Please see <http://****> and <http://****>, and then check out the references found therein for yourself.  I do not claim that the LDS canon of scripture is complete either.  It is well understood that the stack of records from which The Book of Mormon was translated contained much more material than that which Joseph Smith was instructed, at that time, to translate and publish.It is the Mormon writings in Denying the Deity of Jesus that are incomplete.  Again, if you're going to make a claim like this about the content of LDS scripture, then please provide an example.  Cite for me a passage in our scripture which denies the deity of Jesus Christ. 
To email me, remove the string .nospam from the email address which appears below.  DO NOT send me any form of advertising, chain letters, or other such garbage.  Spammers will be dealt with very harshly!bob-blaylock.nospam@usa.net 
Edited 6/12/2001 8:18:07 PM ET by BOB_BLAYLOCK 



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Edited 6/12/2001 10:22:31 PM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/12/2001 8:27 pm  
To:  ALL   (14 of 51)  
 
  62.14 in reply to 62.13  
 
  Once again, David has shown his true stripes.  In my previous posting, I provided links to pages which provide very strong evidence in support of a point which I was making, and which is in opposition to a position taken by David.

  Does David have enough confidence in the strength of his own position, to allow evidence to be presented which appears to disprove it?  Obviously not!  He has edited my posting in order to censor the information I had sought to present, and in so doing, he screwed up the formatting of my message as well.

  It's just as I've been saying all along.  David either knows that he is wrong, or else he lacks confidence in the truth of his position.  At best, he is concerned only with having his point be believed, without regard to whether or not it is true.  If there is not a delibereate intent, hee, to deceive, there is, at best, a careless disregard for whether or not he is deceiving.

  To this end, rather than allowing the opposing evidence to be presented, so that all may see it and judge for thesmelves, and rather than responding in an open and honest way to this evidence, he has chosen, like a cowardly liar who knows that his position cannot stand up to honest examination, to censor and suppress the evidence.

  I also note that he has not responded to two other critical challenges in my previous posting.  David made two statements about LDS scripture, namely that they are plagiarized from the Bible, and that they deny the deity of Christ.  These statements are not true, and I think that David knows very well that they are not true, or at least that he has no basis on which to make them.  I challenged him to defend these statements by presenting examples of LDS scripture which are consistent with either of these statements, and he has not responded.

  Is this what should be expected of one who professes to be a follower and defender of Christ?  I say that these are acts of overt deception, in the manner, not of Christ, but of he who is called The Great Deceiver and The Father of All Lies.  Once again, David's true character is showing through his pious, hypocritical facade.



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/12/2001 8:55 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (15 of 51)  
 
  62.15 in reply to 62.14  
 
Bob, Sorry about the formatting. It has happened to my posts also. 
Any Chance you could take the Mormon Discussion over to the Mormon string? 

I hope people will soon realize that this forum is for Christian Links. 

If you want to quote the relevant info from that site, we can discuss it on the Mormon string. 

Thanks




David A. Brown
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/13/2001 12:00 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (16 of 51)  
 
  62.16 in reply to 62.15  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
Any Chance you could take the Mormon Discussion over to the Mormon string?
  OK, this discussion now continues here.



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  From:  Will (xv1100a)   6/13/2001 3:23 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (17 of 51)  
 
  62.17 in reply to 62.3  
 
**God created us with a choice. To be fair He had to allow us some thing to choose besides Him so He placed the 
tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. What is love if there is no choice? God loves us enough to 
give us a choice to serve Him or not. ** 
So 'God' wanted us to be ignorant? What sort of 'choice' is 'Love me or I will torture you forever'??? Add to that the fact that 'God' admits that he allows others to decieve the majority into eternal suffering... Is this 'good' to you???? 

**God favored Abel over Cain because Abel sacrificed the best that he had to God. Cain only gave a portion of what 
he had but not the best portion.** 

It is repeated OFTEN that 'God' enjoys the smell of burning flesh. (what have YOU burnt lately?) Is THIS 'good' to you??? 

**You are complaining about how God handled things in Egypt by killing all of their first born children. Well God tried 
other avenues and nothing worked. You talk as though killing the first born was God's first choice, it wasn't. ** 

If one is to believe the OT, (Torah) then it is clearly stated that 'God' told Moses that he would "harden Pharoah's heart". SO, if any of it is true, ALL is due to 'God', especially the death toll. Is this 'GOOD' to you??? 




Freedom- the state of being without restraint. 
"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
- Benjamin Franklin

Will 

First Officer
Southern Cruisers Riding Club
SunCoast Chapter 

Southern

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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/13/2001 3:39 pm  
To:  Will (xv1100a)   (18 of 51)  
 
  62.18 in reply to 62.17  
 
What you seem to be doing is equivalent to picking fleas off a dog. For every flea that you kill a thousand more will take it's place. For every question that you get answered the enemy will replace with a thousand more. 
The heart of the matter is what are you going to do with Jesus? Accept Him as Savior and Lord and reap the benefits? Reject Him and face the Judgement Seat? 

Ruth


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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/14/2001 2:05 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (19 of 51)  
 
  62.19 in reply to 62.18  
 
I'm afraid Will is right. God is an angry, vengul God according to the Old Testament. All he ever seems to do is kill people for not worshiping him. Heck, he made Adam a rapist. Did you know that. 
In the beginning of Genesis God creates everything (and it is good). Then it goes on to say how he created man and woman. The next couple chapters of Genesis move on to tell of his other creations but then something intresting happens. Suddenly, only Adam has been created with no wife in sight. After that, he takes Adam's rib to make Eve. There seems to be material missing but the Jews know better... 

According to the Jews, God originally created man and woman at the same time. Adam's first wife was Lilith. When Adam tried to advance on her, she protested and resisted him. He tried to rape her so she uttered the true name of God and vanished. It was after that that God decided to make Eve from Adam, for without her being complete and him being complete they would always need one another to be truly happy.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/14/2001 8:19 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (20 of 51)  
 
  62.20 in reply to 62.19  
 
What you are attempting to quote is called Jewish folklore it is no more true than American folklore unless of course if you believe in the Giant Paul Bunion and his companion Babe the Blue Ox.
(New Testament)
1 Timothy 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

(Old Testament)
Lamentations 3:21-23 This I recall in my mind, therefore have I hope. It is the LORDs Mercies that we are not consumed, because His compassion fail not. They are new every morning: Great is Thy Faithfulness.

The Old and New Testament God is the same God. The Old Testament is also Full of Mercy and the New Testament is also full of wrath, Just read Revelation.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/14/2001 8:22 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (21 of 51)  
 
  62.21 in reply to 62.19  
 
What you are attempting to quote is called Jewish folklore it is no more true than American folklore unless of course if you believe in the Giant Paul Bunion and his companion Babe the Blue Ox.
(New Testament)
1 Timothy 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

(Old Testament)
Lamentations 3:21-23 This I recall in my mind, therefore have I hope. It is the LORDs Mercies that we are not consumed, because His compassion fail not. They are new every morning: Great is Thy Faithfulness.

The Old and New Testament God is the same God. The Old Testament is also Full of Mercy and the New Testament is also full of wrath, Just read Revelation.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/14/2001 7:27 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (22 of 51)  
 
  62.22 in reply to 62.20  
 
Tell any Jew that and they'll just call you another uneducated, racist Christian. Lilith is clearly in the Torah (which is mostly old Testament anyway). So, if thats folklore, then so is the Old Testament which you so love to quote. 
The three most important books in the Jewish religion (in order) are the Talmud, the Torah and the Quaballah. Oddly enough, Jesus was a Jew. So, if you're going to say that the Jews are completely wrong, then that means Jesus was, as well. 

Intresting how you tripped over youself yet again. 

-The Mad Dr. Shock 



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Edited 6/14/2001 10:30:37 PM ET by DR_SHOCK 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/14/2001 7:54 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (23 of 51)  
 
  62.23 in reply to 62.22  
 
Lilith is Not in the Old Testament, Not in the New Testament, Not in the Bible. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/14/2001 8:11 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (24 of 51)  
 
  62.24 in reply to 62.22  
 
Matthew 19:4 And He (Jesus) Answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female.
1 Timothy 2:13 For Adam was first formed then Eve.

Oops looks like according to the Bible Lilith doesnt existed! Except in folklore.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/14/2001 10:36 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (25 of 51)  
 
  62.25 in reply to 62.24  
 
Or older versions of the New Testament. Looks like your wrong again... Considering the quote you gave me is AFTER God already created man and woman once... And then creates woman again (which is in the King James Bible, by the way). 
Surely you've noticed the time gap in Genesis.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/16/2001 6:24 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (26 of 51)  
 
  62.26 in reply to 62.24  
 
I was meaning to find this earlier but didn't have the time due to work, wedding plans, etc. This was what I ment to use regarding the gap in Genesis (I couldn't find any of my three Bibles, either since I'm moving). I was also planning on using the final paragraph for the language debate we were having. If you'd like to see the source, I can email you the URL or post it on the forum. The author, being a rather smart web-goer, doesn't give his last name on the net, however gives his background, pictures, etc. of himself on his page. 
A close examination of Genesis chapters 1 and will show that there are in fact two different Creation myths recorded. The first, which begins at Genesis 1:1 and ends at Genesis 2:3, has Creation partitioned into six days, with various classes of beings and objects created on each day. The second story, which begins at Genesis 2:4, does not mention the six days at all, and seems to 
reverse the order of creation for some species. 

In Genesis 1, Man and Woman are created together on the sixth day (1:26-27), following the creation of the animals. In the second 
story, however, a single man, Adam, is created after the plants and placed in the Garden to dress it. (2:4-8). However, the man 
was lonely. In order to provide companions for him, the animals are created and brought to Adam (2:18-19). After naming all the 
animals, a companion is still not found for Adam, so God creates a woman (Eve) out of one of Adam's ribs (2:20-23). 

The order of creation, according to Genesis 1, is therefore plants (1:12), Sun, Moon and stars (1:16), sea and air creatures (1:21), 
land animals (1:25) and humans (1:27). In Genesis 2, the order of creation is plants (2:5), the man Adam (2:7), animals (2:19) and 
finally the female Eve (2:22). 

Another feature that distinguishes the two stories may provide a clue to their origin. In the first story, the Deity is always called by 
the Hebrew Elohim (usually translated God), while the second story uses the name Yahweh Elohim (translated Lord God in the King James Version). It appears that the first story was written by someone who used only the generic term for God, while the second was written by someone who used God's personal name (Yahweh). This feature is actually repeated a number of times in the Old Testament 


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/16/2001 7:10 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (27 of 51)  
 
  62.27 in reply to 62.26  
 
Its not two different accounts of the same event it is to accounts of two events.
First God created the heavens the stars the land the oceans and animals birds, fish etc. Then God created Adam. How was Adam supposed to Know that God was the Creator, Adam came on day 6 after much of the Creation. God then created the mate to the existing animals so Adam could see God create Life and Know that God is the creator of All Life.

Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Notice Genesis 1:20 the fowl are created out of the water then in Genesis 2:19 the fowl are created out of the ground. God also did this with people, Adam was created out of the ground now people are created out of the water of the womb. God being the All Powerful Creator is not limited to what He can create life out of.

The Names of God:
Elohiem is Yahweh, and Both are Jesus.
God is revealing Himself to Mankind by the Names He allows us to Call Him. In the entire Bible from Beginning to End there are over 100 Names for Mankind to call out to God. Names Like, God, Father, Friend, Faithful, Helper, Provider, Savior, etc.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Will (xv1100a)   6/17/2001 7:59 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (28 of 51)  
 
  62.28 in reply to 62.18  
 
My dogs have never had fleas for long. 
One could at least attempt to answer questions honestly asked. 
I disagree with your 'question'. It is not as simple as accepting Jesus, or facing Judgement. It is rather do you BELIEVE what is presented about any Religion? If you do not BELIEVE, all your 'acceptance' is false, & cannot save you. 

If it should come to pass that one day I am called to task, I will say that there was never presented anything to believe IN. If the response is that was the plan from the beginning, then what hope is there?


Freedom- the state of being without restraint. 
"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
- Benjamin Franklin

Will 

First Officer
Southern Cruisers Riding Club
SunCoast Chapter 

Southern

Pride 
 
  
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  From:  Will (xv1100a)   6/17/2001 8:04 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (29 of 51)  
 
  62.29 in reply to 62.23  
 
Yet each VERSION of the 'Bible' is a compilation of MEN. If any were really 'inspired' by 'God', WHY the other versions? Just because the early Catholic Church didn't care to include most of the Jewish books doesn't mean they are any more 'folklore' or fiction than those they did.

Freedom- the state of being without restraint. 
"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
- Benjamin Franklin

Will 

First Officer
Southern Cruisers Riding Club
SunCoast Chapter 

Southern

Pride 
 
  
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  From:  Will (xv1100a)   6/17/2001 8:09 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (30 of 51)  
 
  62.30 in reply to 62.26  
 
The entire thing makes little sense, until you concede that there are many Gods, & some are Patron to different people. (BTW, Elohim means 'Gods', multiple, & of masculine & feminine) 
YHVH (Yehovah) is the Patron God of Isreal. AFTER the Gods created the world, HE created Adam, & the Garden of Eden. 


Freedom- the state of being without restraint. 
"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
- Benjamin Franklin

Will 

First Officer
Southern Cruisers Riding Club
SunCoast Chapter 

Southern

Pride 
 
  
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  From:  Will (xv1100a)   6/17/2001 8:15 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (31 of 51)  
 
  62.31 in reply to 62.27  
 
Seek the roots of words for truth. 
IF Jesus was his own father, (the one he called out to so often, assumed to be Jehovah) then why did he talk to himself so publicly? Why the strange ventriliquest act of answering himself from the sky? 
More importantly, WHY beg for his own life in the Garden? 


Freedom- the state of being without restraint. 
"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
- Benjamin Franklin

Will 

First Officer
Southern Cruisers Riding Club
SunCoast Chapter 

Southern

Pride 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/17/2001 1:45 pm  
To:  Will (xv1100a)   (32 of 51)  
 
  62.32 in reply to 62.31  
 
God is Spiritual, humans are Physical beings. God exists in more Dimensions than we do. Until we receive our spiritual body from God and enter into a more Dimensional relationship with God we will not understand the Triunity Nature of God, The 3 in 1 nature of God.
Isaiah 45:26 Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I Am God and there is none else.

Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/17/2001 2:11 pm  
To:  ALL   (33 of 51)  
 
  62.33 in reply to 62.32  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
God is Spiritual, humans are Physical beings. God exists in more Dimensions than we do. Until we receive our spiritual body from God and enter into a more Dimensional relationship with God we will not understand the Triunity Nature of God, The 3 in 1 nature of God.
  Much of the understanding found in modern Christianity of the so-called trinity, is based, not on anything Biblical, but on certain creeds which came about in the period of time a few centuries after Christ's time on earth, which were influenced very heavily by paganism and by Greek philosophy.  The Nicene and Athanasian Creeds are, perhaps, the best examples.  What is most remarkable is how, through these creeds, a simple, and easily understood truth was corrupted into a convoluted and illogical mess which is the basis for much of modern Christian understanding of the nature of God.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 To email me, remove the string .nospam from the email address which appears below.  DO NOT send me any form of advertising, chain letters, or other such garbage.  Spammers will be dealt with very harshly!

bob-blaylock.nospam@usa.net  

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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/17/2001 3:41 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (34 of 51)  
 
  62.34 in reply to 62.33  
 
Thankyou for understanding that the trinity isn't an original Christian concept. =)


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/17/2001 4:06 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (35 of 51)  
 
  62.35 in reply to 62.27  
 
None of what you said explains the fact that the authors of Genesis had no clue as to what order God did things in. The order is stated once in Genesis 1 and then changed in Genesis 2. Nothing you said accounts for this, and your explination of how people of today come from the water of the womb has nothing to do with God's original creation of the world. Last I checked there hasn't been a virgin birth in over 2000 years. 
Elohiem and Yahweh (YHVH) are from two different dialects and mean two different things. One is the Hebrew God's name while the other is the general word for God. Neither of which are words used for Jesus later in the Bible. "Yahweh" is close to the Hebrew name of Jesus, however its spelled with different Hebrew characters depending on who they're talking about (either God or Jesus). In Hebrew, God's name roughly breaks down to the Romanized translation "YHVH" while Jesus's name is more complicated. It just proves that Genesis had many differnt authors, none of which collaborated on the topic.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/17/2001 7:07 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (36 of 51)  
 
  62.36 in reply to 62.35  
 
Trinity means three distinct entities. There are many trinities including many Satanic trinitys, like the Antichrist, Beast and False Prophet of Revelation. And including many of the ancient Egyptian and worldly religions; Horis, Isis and ?. 
God is a Triune God of Three in One. 
All Godly Attributes are Accredited to each the Father, Jesus & Holy Spirit. 

Each is credited with: 
Being Eternal 
Receiving Worship 
Creation 
Creating man in Our Image Genesis 1:26 
Being sinned against 
Forgiving sin 
The Resurrection of Jesus 
Etc. 

And the Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit are each referred to as Individuals.




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum




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Edited 6/17/2001 10:08:41 PM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/18/2001 4:02 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (37 of 51)  
 
  62.37 in reply to 62.36  
 
Um... Actually, in world mythology, trinities only occur very rarely. Usually things come in sets or two or four. The only acceptations I can think of which actually come in sets of three are in Christianity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), northern European pagan tradition (Mother, Maiden, Crone) and in the Hindu (Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu). Most of the time, things come in light and dark aspects (as with God and Satan but not as complex a relationship) or come in cycling sets of four which represent birth, growth, maturity and death. The Middle Eastern religions were pretty different from most other stuff in the world at the time because they choose to revolve around sets of 3 (a sacred number to the Jews). 
With the Egyptians, as you used for an example, there is no straight set of three. For sets of two you have Ra and Thoth (the sun and the moon), Seth and Osiris (evil and the defeat of evil in death) and Horus and Ra (The Earth born and the ascendant). You'd think that the Ra and Thoth connection would somehow tie into Horus, but it only does in a symbolic way. Thoth never has anything to do with Horus except for replacing Horus's left eye with one of his own after his battle with Seth. However, in Egyptian belief, Horus ascends to the throne of Ra in death, but to rule in complimentary of his father, Osiris, who is king of the underworld. Thus, if anything, you've got a set of four: The sun, the moon, the sky and the Earth. 

I could see one trinity in the Egyptians if I really looked, though the three don't have much effect on one another as far as trinities go. The one between Horus, Isis and Osiris. However, they really don't have any significant relationship with one another except for the fact that they're the three parts of a family. Although it doesn't really sound right since they'd represent Man, wife and a divinly born child whose only purpose is avenging his father's murder. 

However, Egyptian mythology is really neat and has a lot of parallels to Christianity if you look at it in the symbolic way that the Egyptians did. 



-The Mad Dr. Shock 
"As above, so below."
 
  
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/22/2001 2:18 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (39 of 51)  
 
  62.39 in reply to 62.37  
 
And th dualistic belief often comes from Zorasterism... a believe that th universe was light and dark... that things stood in the way of this light to cause the shadow or dark... 
I am only paraphrasing Zorasterism as it's more complicated than that, but for religions of the time, it's a lot more simple. 

Al Kupone
 
  
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   From:  StevenJn316   6/22/2001 2:43 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (40 of 51)  
 
  62.40 in reply to 62.37  
 
We live in a universe of space, time and matter. 
Each of these THREE aspects exists singularly in a threefold form as well. 

Space - three dimensions 
Time - past, present, future 
Matter - gas, liquid, solid. 

As to the Trinity, at issue is if the Bible teaches that the Father is distinct from the Son, Jesus...and then if the Holy Spirit is also distinct from either of the two. 

The answer is yes. Jesus was not praying to Himself. 

THEN, we must ask if the Bible teaches all three of these distinct 'persons' (for lack of a better word) are equated to deity, posessing the attributes of deity. The answer is Yes, again. 

What Christians call 'God' is only One God, existing as 3 'persons'. Actually I understand those who think the Bible teaches 3 different Gods more than I do those who think the Bible (and early Christianity) did not teach Jesus or the Holy Spirit are deity. 

There is one compound known as H2O also - it exists in three ways, ice, steam or water. 

One corporation is represented equally and completely by three officers. In fact, those three officers can be legally the same person, but act in different ways depending on the role of treasurer, secretary or president. 

The Trinity concept of this 'being' known as God (capital G) IS taught in both Testaments and is not based on some church creed coming centuries later.
 
  
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From:  Dr_Shock   6/22/2001 2:57 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (41 of 51)  
 
  62.41 in reply to 62.40  
 
Thank you again for knowing very little about what you type. 
Space, time and matter are not the only things the universe is made up of. Light is none of the above things (although it is sometimes considered a particle its usually a wave). Antimatter and dark matter have both been proven to exist and neither behave anything like normal matter does. Time, we have discovered, has many facets and is in direct correlation with movement through space although there is no direct connection between space itself and time. Similarly, space and time are only the "places" in which matter resides and can, therefore, not be considered as part of the trinity. 

Secondly, there are four distinct states of matter, not three. Solid, liquid, gas and plasma. 

FYI: The currently accepted formula for water is H2O. Unfortunately, this has come into debate throughout the years because straight H2O, while it works for chemical reaction equations and can still sustain life, doesn't act the same as natural water does. For example, H2O, when frozen, won't spike in an ice cube tray like "natural" water does. 

<<<The Trinity concept of this 'being' known as God (capital G) IS taught in both Testaments and is not based on some church creed coming centuries later.>>> 

The Bible we have today is the result of it being the creed of churches past. 

-The Mad Dr. Shock 



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Edited 6/22/01 5:58:33 PM ET by DR_SHOCK 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   6/22/2001 3:49 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (42 of 51)  
 
  62.42 in reply to 62.41  
 
I really was not looking to teach a science class, rather just to give some simple examples of threes in our world when you stated the abundance of twos. I would think you could see that. I would be curious what H2O looks like in plasma form though. And I know something like light does not fit into a nice box (literally & figuratively). Of course, most people in most of the world through most of history have related to the issue I posted in the SAME WAY as I did. Solid, liquid, gas, past, present, future and the like. 
I guess I could have mentioned protons, electrons and neutrons as parts of the atom (to which most of us would easily relate) but I'm sure you could explain my ignorance in describing complexities and subtlties of atomic structure. 

I do not look to the universe to prove the Trinity idea - I was offering an example. Actually, the best illustration of the Trinity 'in action' I think I gave was with the officers and the corporation. Even that has its flaws - we are speaking of the infinite Godhead here. 

The meat of the Trinity issue is if the Bible teaches Jesus and the Holy Spirit are deity and also unique 'persons', along with the Father.
 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/22/2001 4:04 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (43 of 51)  
 
  62.43 in reply to 62.40  
 
We live in a universe of more then 3 concepts. 
Space: 4 dimension if you include Time, 5 if you also include movement (and there are actually 7 if you count hte true first, 

Time: there is no 'present', because once you think 'this is the present', each word is either in the future or in the past of the others. 

Matter: also Plasma, Post-plasma, sub-solid matter. 

Energy: and energy inlcudes both time (chronitons), movement, heat and warmth (photons), radiation (Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Delta). 

Anti-Matter. 

H2O also exists as Hydroxide-Plasma. 

So you were saying?


 
  
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/22/2001 4:16 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (44 of 51)  
 
  62.44 in reply to 62.42  
 
Actually, it was stated there is not a large number of threes in the mythological history of the world, there is a difference between the two, though that was a good attempt of logic. 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/22/2001 5:04 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (45 of 51)  
 
  62.45 in reply to 62.42  
 
Its real hard to find sets of 3 in nature. Take the world from a social context and you get all sorts of trinities. 
Art, fate, science 
Mother, father, child 
Worker, coworker, boss 
Friends, family, associates 
(That sort of thing.) 

(By the way, water in plasma form isn't that intresting. Its just really bright, abnormal looking and kinda pretty to watch. Think of it as a lava lamp unleashed. All plasma looks pretty much the same, though.)


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/22/2001 7:29 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (46 of 51)  
 
  62.46 in reply to 62.40  
 
You are wrong on matter. 99.999% of all matter is made up of the fourth state, plasma.

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   6/25/2001 1:51 pm  
To:  ALL   (47 of 51)  
 
  62.47 in reply to 62.46  
 
Again, H20 at room temperature is in a liquid state. Add the temperature it turns to gas, reduce temperature it becomes a solid. That is the simple 'gradeschool' point I was making. How it is turned to plasma I do not know, but it must be more than just an adjustment of the temperature issue. Of course then one person said 99.999 of all matter is plasma which makes no sense to me at all. Unless this number relates to some outer space environment and not the 99.999% of matter on Earth. 
Anyway, on to time, which yes is normally moving forward but can be slowed down and even stopped. 

But to say there is no 'present' in discussion of time is again somewhat foolish in real world context and in the simple point at hand. Languages use 'tense' which expresses TIME of the action of the verb. There is a present tense. Time is expressed in a variety of ways like in years, hours, decades etc. There is a present year, hour and decade (and also past and future ones as well.) 

Since this is meaningless to the discussion of the Trinity I am done with science posts. I think this began with a criticism of the Trinity since 'threes' were rare. I sought to make simple observations of 'threes' however these examples are not perfect, though they are understood my most. Time, matter and the like are very complicated I realize. But as I said, I do not need these examples to prove the Trinity. 

Moving on.........
 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/25/2001 2:01 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (48 of 51)  
 
  62.48 in reply to 62.47  
 
you may be but I'm not ... 
yes, turning water into it's plasma form is just a matter of increasing temperature. 

if you don't need examples to prove something, don't give them.


 
  
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  From:  ManafterGod   6/25/2001 3:09 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (49 of 51)  
 
  62.49 in reply to 62.1  
 
However, I'm never gonna stop praising Him. 


 Check out what the Holy Spirit is burning in the Holy Room! And see if you got the fire in you in my webpage!
 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   6/27/2001 11:19 am  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (50 of 51)  
 
  62.50 in reply to 62.48  
 
Taken from a large plasma website. My final plasma post. 
Plasma is by far the most common form of matter. Plasma in the stars and in the tenuous space between them makes up over 99% of the visible universe and perhaps most of that which is not visible. 

On earth we live upon an island of "ordinary" matter. The different states of matter generally found on earth are solid, liquid, and gas. We have learned to work, play, and rest using these familiar states of matter. Sir William Crookes, an English physicist, identified a fourth state of matter, now called plasma, in 1879. 


SO NOW MY POINT IS SEEN. MAN HAS BEEN AROUND A LOT LONGER THAN 1879 AND SO GOD ALLOWED MAN HERE ON EARTH WHERE MAN RESIDES TO HAVE A NICE EXAMPLE OF THE SIMPLE POINT I WAS MAKING. NOTICE THE AUTHORS OF THIS WEBSITE (PLASMA.ORG IF I RECALL) ARE MUCH MORE GENEROUS THAN YOU, ADMITTING WE USE THESE THREE FAMILIAR STATES OF MATTER. 

So yes you are correct, 99.9% of all matter is plasma, and as I thought that relates to an outer space environment we are just now learning so much about. 

Now, since you said it simply is a matter of increasing the temperature to turn water (H2O) into its plasma state (per your post) I am off to my kitchen to boil a pot of water, but somehow I think it will turn to gas first, then my experiment will end. An experiment man has done since fire was discovered, yet I need NASA to make the jump to plasma I guess. 

 
  
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   From:  M_DAuvergne   7/11/2001 4:42 am  
To:  StevenJn316   (51 of 51)  
 
  62.51 in reply to 62.50  
 
If you didn't want to bring up or talk about outer space, then why'd you bring it up in the first place? 
You can't introduce a subject and then expect people NOT to talk about it. 

Furthermore, in your post about time, time is relative. Maybe to you, it may look like time is slowing down for someone else, but to the person who is slowing down it's the same as it has always been. 

Je te remercie! 

~M. D'Auvergne
 
  
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